Born into Sin? No sir, I don't think so

People tell me babies are born into sin and are rebellious by nature. Apparently they have inherent sinful selfish leanings. Well, that's not sin, my friends... that's just a simple thing called survival. Babies don't have the ability to think about other people yet but will to develop into that. At their age they must think about getting fed and that's about it... it's me me me, because they simply can't do it themselves. They depend on the parent. They depend on us to entertain them because they are forming bonds, and again can't entertain themselves. That's not sin... that's far from sin. That's natural growth and healthy dependency.

Sure as they get older they will need to learn how to shake off the self thoughts and share but it is a natural development from survival to co-dependency. Not sin... but I suppose you can call this development sin if you like. The instinct to protect what is our... toys, food, etc... is a natural and healthy one. Again, as we learn and develop, hopefully we learn how important it is to live morally, ethically and friendly with the people around us... (taking on more of the attributes that Jesus preached).

I see the actual value in the kids who touch the stove. Our curiosity and freedom of choice allows us to experience things for ourselves. The kids who touch the stove learn a lesson... They remember well the natural consequences. Their hand heals after a short period of pain and they are wiser for it.

Put the Christian scenario in place... If you touch the stove (and are not saved, as you say) then you are thrown into hell and hurt for a very long time.. even eternally? You will never learn because the punishment will never stop.

God wants to be a father AND he wants to be a Bridegroom. I think he's confused and would be a real bi-atch if you believe he created us born into sin in the first place. I wouldn't trust him with the kids.

If he is so insecure about his relationship with us that he would shoot us down for:

1. breaking up with him because we don't want to huddle together on Sunday mornings, or
2. not getting to know him properly; then he is the sort of partner who shouldn't be running a universe.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't with that sort of an unreasonable entity. I believe that something went down 2000 years ago and that it was done to do away with the laws that we couldn't deal with, and that it was done for ALL! Whatever it was, it was a good thing for us. The writers and interpreters of the bible since then have had their own agendas and, as is the case throughout human history, desire to hold control over others. The whole "we're saved and you're not" mentality that breeds arrogance and pride is not from the god I believe in.

No one's come back and told as what it's like after death... maybe Jesus, but he didn't really give much away about it did he? It always makes me chuckle when people think of the afterlife as it's alluded to in Revelations (an extremely symbolic book), as if there's streets of gold - like such a mineral would be so special to spiritual bodies that still need legs to walk down them in order to get to the mansions that have rooms and en suites.


Charles Wong said...

Hey dude,
Enjoyed reading your blog, esp. the part about "born into sin" and must have a saviour God to "prevail" or go to Heaven. I shared your sentiments too.

Just hoping if you could tone down the "aint Christian" message a little bit so that our Christian friends can enjoy your good writings too, and perhaps even see your common (or uncommon) sense. ;)


mothpete said...

No, there'll be no toning down. I think if Christians get offended then they need to be.

I did put a ? question mark after 'aint christian' to soften it a bit. pose it as a question... ain't christian? maybe, maybe not.

Anonymous said...

Nice blog, I appreciate it as I completely agree. I think telling a child he/she are "born into sin" is setting them up for a lifetime of confusion, self-doubt and guilt complexes to name a few...after all it is virtually impossible to be like Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I think the reason you all hide in this chat room talking down about Christians is because YOU YOURSELVES have a conviction. That no one can fix but you yourselves by turning to the truth of the scriptures. There are so many things wrong with these things you are saying.

We are born into a sinful nature

(Mark. 7:21,22) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, (22) deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

Any one who reads this message who claims to be a believer of God and doesn't speak out against this arrogant foolishness this man speaks of and just asks him nicely to stop that talk and says he is fine saying it is just as guilty as him of writing this. Repentance is all it takes and faith in learning in him to get back that is the term of repentance to get back to where you were before. It is used for believers if you dont believe in God don't even speak of sin you don't even know what your talking about. The reason we go to church is to get closer to him. Christ said this profound statement about all the laws and rules in the bible summed up to 2 greatest commandments after a hipocryte Pharasee (don't mind my bad spelling)

(Matthew 22:37-39)
“You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

if you love god you will go to church and do his will. Otherwise you might as well not be a believer he speaks strongly against being lukewarm. Its either one or the other God Or Satan

"No one can serve two masters, because either he will hate one and love the other, or be loyal to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and riches!"
Mathew 6:24 Now of course he was talkig about god and money but that can relate (and there are many other verses in the bible youll have to research use google if you must that referance to serving either God or satan. Your choice man Sounds like your just whining because you want to try to get others to go to hell with you because you don't want to serve God the right way and be a man of God you want to be a liar and a thief of souls.

mothpete said...

Hey anonymous! Thanks for visiting the blog and taking the time to read my article. Why do you think people are 'hiding' here? You're on anonymously after all.

I stand by the comments I made in the blog post and I don't think they can be refuted by your bible passages. 1. They don't make sense and 2. They were written by a bunch of old guys who died ages ago.

"If you love god, go to church?" - eek, and have to hang around christians... shudder. pass. God should stop being so needy as that's always a turn off.

Anonymous said...

It is very interesting reading this blog and I enjoy it howerver I think yourself and "Christians" can argue about this stuff until they are blue in the face. I use "s because as a Christian I am constantly shaking my head at the things people say who claim to be Christians.

My two cents is this "Sin is a very slippy thing because it front loads the pleasure and back loads the pain." What I mean is you have all these people talking about how great sin is, but we don't tend to look at all the people sufering because of it. Take any sin; sex, gambling, greed, drugs...all advertised by "us" to be great things and we are so stupid because we buy into it. Ever talked to a person with an STD? Ever thought you had one? or watched a person thrown themselves away over alcohol? A person that you know could live a great life if they just put down the bottle. Or a person who gained the whole world financially speaking yet ends his life in suicide? We as people allow ourselves to be tempted by this "sin" and pay no attention to the consequences or think they won't happen to us.

Then I look at my life and relize, even as a person redeemed by Christ I can't stop chasing sin. Romans 6:26 says "what benefit did you receive from the things you are now ashamed of." Why do I keep going back to sin when I know it destroys.

Everything I have read in the bible that I have applied to my life has led me to being happier, healtier and more satisfied with life. While I watch people rebelling against God's commands and are absolutly unhappy and hate life.

The comical thing is those people that hate life question my faith? as if I am the person that needs a reality check. Why don't people question the way they live their lives? They will stick by their addictions, until death they stay committed to their "sin".

Why do you question the bible so much? have you tried to apply any of it to your life? Just a question? I understand that if you just pick pieces of it it is hard to understand.

Back to your subject, in my life I just can't seem to shake sin for good, always selfish, always self-serving, and doing things I will regret. People say God does not want us to sin because it is fun, the way I see it God is looking out for our interests because he knows our nature is to wander due to our free will. It is our free will that is confusing, not sin. Sin is pretty straight forward.

I just had a son not too long ago and I can say I would not want to make him love me. If he does not love me do you think he will listen to my instructions? If I warn him of something harmful do you think he will listen? or rebel and find out the hard way? God is a concerned Father looking on us with love waiting for us to look back. I'd say it is in our nature to turn away, but God still loves us the same. You can't out sin God's love, but I think it will make life a lot harder to love.

(too lazy to make an id, but wanted to comment)

mothpete said...

Hi Tom, I think you following quote is interesting:

"Take any sin; sex, gambling, greed, drugs...all advertised by "us" to be great things and we are so stupid because we buy into it."

Sex is a sin? No, it's not. It's a pleasurable activity that can be abused to achieve negative results just like anything... is eating a sin? Sin is a man-made concept to 'control' people with guilt.

Gambling? Is gambling a sin? Is there even a bible scripture to back that up? Investing in shares, or pretty much anything is gambling, and again, abuse and lack of discipline lead to problems, not the act itself.

Drugs. Another generalisation. Not all drugs are bad, and some people live and die happy addicts to nicotine... it's their choice, and yes again, abuse and misuse give negative results.]

Sin? Give me a break.

mothpete said...

"Why do you question the bible so much?"

Because I believe it's a book written by fallible men and must be questioned lest we all become naive dimwits who believe anything.

Heck, even if it was irrefutably proven to be written by a god would be more than enough reason to question it with even more vigor.

Anonymous said...

Interesting thoughts…. OK so I give you the sin thing that context does matter. Take the sex one for example, within the confines of marriage sex is a God given blessing, but abusing it (outside of marriage) brings pain. I can already hear the arguments build with this statement. The Bible is very clear about sex outside of marriage.

I would be willing to bet that you would argue that this concept is crap. However, look at the divorce rate in our country? Why? Because marriage is a broken flawed concept? or because we broke the rules with porn, sex out of wedlock and every other crazy thing that lustful hearts and minds came up with?

The bottom line is this…this Bible teaches that true happiness is found from self sacrifice and a giving spirit and the world says live for yourself and take what you can when you can. Yes? So which one is right?

My argument is that God made you and so God should now best how you work. For example God made marriage, so by following His instructions in the Bible is the best way to have a successful and fulfilling marriage. Just like life, the best lesson in marriage is that it is not about you. Our hearts were wired this way.

I also did not communicate my thoughts on the questioning the Bible. I think it is healthy to challenge your beliefes, but are you give God an opportunity to be right? or are you predispositioned to argue against everything God is speaking to you?

James 1:19 "Everyone should be quick to listen and slow to speak and slow to become angry." Their is some easy wisdom to follow. I would br that just by following this concept this week, life might be a little less stressful.

Just my thoughts for the day

mothpete said...

"within the confines of marriage sex is a God given blessing, but abusing it (outside of marriage) brings pain."

This is another generalisation... No, sex outside of marriage doesn't always bring pain. Pre-marital sex is fine between consenting mature adults. Heck, I even know plenty of swingers who practice lots of fun safe sex. Monogamy is definitely the best path for the vast majority of people, but the divorce rate is something that rains on the just, the unjust, the Christians, and the whomsoever. Sometimes people don't work well together, and a lot more women are realising they don't need to stay in the relationship and take the abuse, or pretense.

"For example God made marriage, Our hearts were wired this way."

Not an absolute, but for the most part we only have enough energy to devote ourselves and open up to only one person completely.

"this Bible teaches that true happiness is found from self sacrifice and a giving spirit and the world says live for yourself and take what you can when you can. Yes? So which one is right?"

The world got together and said this? Selfish people say this, but I don't want to judge our whole human race by the weak-minded. I'm glad we have philosophers, and poets, and a great collection of books of wisdom in various religions that promote the concept of a less self-centred harmonised life other than the normal instinctual self-preserving one that we're born into by default.

mothpete said...

But, and gotta say, thanks for reading and commenting Tim. sorry if I sound snappy, pretentious, and 'matter-of-factedly'. I haven't had any commentators on the blog for a while, and rarely get a chance to rant. lol cya. Pete.

Anonymous said...

It's cool.

My perspective on the sex deal is two fold...fisrt some interesting stats:
-Suicide in teenage boys is 9 times higher if they are sexually active.
-9 billion dollars a year is spent in the US dealing with teen pregnancies.
-Their are now 25 types of STD's which I beleive was significantly lower 40 years ago. With 1 out of 4 sexually active teenagers contracting a desease.
-80% of welfare is paid out to single women with children

Take a look at our countries current financial crisis and imagine what our world would look like if premarital sex was out of the equation. A healthier, happier and wealthier country sounds like something that could get me elected in the next presidential campaign.

Secondly I think our current cultures increased devorce rate has alot to do with our overall attitude of life and the decreased value the average person holds in a committment. Our society doesn't seem to value the strength it takes to follow through on a promise. (Ofcourse in truely abusive situations I think a woman or man should get out from a safty stabdpoint) But tell me how a disregard for the spirit of committment is a good thing? I also have a firm beliefe that premarital sex and the huge addictition to porn in our counrty makes it impossible for a man to commit to one partner. Not to mention the rise in the use of the "little blue pill" because young men are being over stimulated and can't perform during a normal sexual encounter. It ain't just grampa poppin the pill, you know what I'm saying. The pharmisudical companies are laughing the porn crisis all the way to the bank. We keep going down this path and a smart investment may be in viagra becasue the 12 to 19 year olds are destroying their minds with porn are going to need the pill down the road to keep our wellfare program pumping out money to the single women with kids that they are abandonning.

The solution, a simple biblical principal.


By the way I suck at spelling and you probably already figured it out so don't blast me :)

Tom (not tim)

mothpete said...

Statistics need loads of context and cultural comparisons. They're meaningless spin that anyone can use as propaganda, manipulation and conspiracy.

I used to belong to a very fundamentalist church that was so very strict on sexual 'sins' that teens were forced to get married if they crossed the line on what was considered 'fornication'.

Misery ensued.

Your religion forbids body parts from interlinking until a ceremony. of oaths unites them. You think forcing this on everyone will create utopia. Well, I don't think you understand the human condition.

Anonymous said...

A church that forces marriage, not sure ebout that. Sounds wacky.

It is funny that you are so quick to dismiss statistics. What about life experiences? Can they mislead you? Just from the outside looking in sounds like you spent some time growing up in an off center church and have dismissed Christ and the Bible based on that one experience. Does not sound like a very valid testing pool? What are the odds that you have been misled by people?

Christ is about grace not rules and regulations. Rules and regulations belong to a religion not a relationship with Christ.

Sounds like you are a little confussed.


mothpete said...

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics" - I'll dismiss any statistic someone throws at me unless I have the time and willingness to find support, proof and context.

Confused huh? Sigh.

Okay maybe I'll chime in with a 'piss off' now. Yep, I spent a confused 20 years in a fundamentalist church. 15 years prior I was in the catholic church... and a few years recently in mainstream modern Christian churches. I know the bible and there are plenty of 'rules' when it comes to Christianity, whether it be in or out of sects such as the one I was in.