Has anyone seen this debate that aired on Nightline the other night? I just watched it from the website. Kirk Cameron (the Christian rapture poster boy) and his sugar daddy, Ray Comfort, took to challenging the 'Blasphemy Challengers' Rational Response Squad with the claim that they could irrefutably prove God's existence... and do it with scientific evidence. Here's a rough video taken from the audience. It fares better than the biased edit that the major public saw.
On a positive note, the unedited version from the Nightline website has been viewed by over 200 000 viewers in the last few days.
Let's hear their best evidence as to why God doesn't exist, and let the audience decide whose evidence is based on faith and whose is based on fact. We cannot only prove that God exists, but we can prove that the atheist doesn't." Says Ray Comfort.
In short... they didn't.
Kirk tried to prove God's existence by telling his personal 'salvation' story. It proved squat.
Ray tried to prove god scientifically by showing a Coke can and asking if the coca-cola liquid could have made the can over millions of years... wtf? He also used the 10 commandments as further proof with his tired and flawed argument that if you've ever lusted after a girl or told a lie then you are guilty and are going to Hell. The rules of the debate stipulated that the bible wouldn't be used to validify god... Ray just wanted to make sure he preached his 'terrorism'... the man is a complete wank.
Kirk and Ray's argument fell even more apart when they said it was obvious that a creation needs a creator (first of all you need to believe life IS a creation). When the atheists asked them 'Who created god?', they just sat there without a reply for an uncomfortable while and then babbled that god exists outside of 'time'. Their argument was void of any scientific data. They believed that god has to be eternal but didn't deny the idea that the RSS offered that the universe could equally be considered eternal...
Ray comfort is infamous for his banana story but it is so supremely stupid it's actually painful to watch. If a banana is a perfect example of God's handiwork because of it's convenience to humans, then what the hell is a pineapple? Ever try to harvest and eat one? Ouch!
15 comments:
Ahhh yes - they see everything as proof because they already believe. They don't understand why it isn't obvious to everyone else. Remember being like that Moth? Crazy days...
I've got a real problem, I mean a terrible one, with Kirk from Growing Pains. It seems his 'growing pains' were so bad he couldn't resist becoming a Christian freak and praising God as if it's a real thing... I see this guy all over the stations blabbering about Christ, well let me tell you something you damn stupid fool, whatever happened to cause you to become so mentally retarded I am sick of it, I hope you become atheist again just to laugh at you.
And for anyone that likes this guy or Ray Comfort (the greatest freak of all time who Christ keeps alive to torment us) I hope you realize these fools are evil, they are the scurge of society. Just watch them as they interview people with their mind control techniques, they ask simple questions, then rephrase the answers to put them in different contexts, what's even worse is they make the habit of going after people that are weakminded fools who huddle in groups, burn Kirk!
I love those instances when Kirk will ask someone "let me ask you something, do you believe in an immortal soul?" and they say "well no I don't" and he says "oh but what if I told you that you do have one, and by not worshipping god you will loose it" and he'll say "I don't care I am my own person" and he'll yap until he gets them confused because they are wondering why the Growing Pains guy is talking to them!
I hate him, I hate him more than anybody alive, he makes me feel sick, and I hope nobody is converted cuz of this guy..
OH... MY... GOD!
That banana thing! I stared dumbfounded! A banana? A banana testifies to the genius of God Almighty? This has to be - like so many of the other Christian proofs and rants - a joke. It's a parody - it has to be. No one would willingly put himself in front of a camera and make a total plonker out of himself like that for real. Surely.
Maybe he lost a bet. Drew the short straw or something. All his mates said to him, "Na ha! You lost Ray. You've got to do the banana thing for us... and this time we're filming!"
Honestly... if I were God I'd be sooo embarrassed having a retard like that trying to make my case for me. I bet God's up there wincing and cringing. Every time he sees Ray picking up a banana he probably thinks to himself, "Oh no... Ray, please don't do the banana thing. Just eat it Ray... please just eat it... please? Oh, no, it's the banana argument again."
I mean, we've got A.C. Grayling, Richard Dawkins, Michael Martin and loads of other well known atheists writing essays and dissertations with titles like "The Argument from Evil", "The Argument from Evolution" and "The Argument from Free Will".
Then on God's side you've got Ray Comfort with "The Argument from a Banana".
There's a prize for any Christian on this forum who can watch that YouTube clip without wincing or laughing. And the prize is... A BANANA OF COURSE!
It's comedy. It's sheer, unadulterated comedy.
Oh no, Ray is a serious sam. I tortured myself recently and listed to him and Kirk do their radio show and tv series. I've had a cringe overload going through that crap. Why do I do it to myself... crazy people are just fascinating to look at.
He didn't bring his banana to the Nightline debate, he brought his Coke can instead. That was almost as phallic. So the following items are all now apparently the atheists nightmare... the trilogy of terror...
Bananas
Coke cans
and of course the jar of Peanut Butter
The overly simplistic explanations from Comfort bordered on insulting to any honest atheist or agnostic. His analogy of the Coke can was not wrong, it’s just that it was a play on any age old “watch-watchmaker” illustration that has been used by debate team seventh graders and he never used any science other than defining a few terms. He couldn’t even muster Behe’s concept of irreducible complexity or Demski’s mathematics. When asked, on more than one occasion, “If everything was created by a Creator, then who created the Creator?” the believers sat in awkward silence. Cameron did talk about God living in eternity and not being bound by time, which wasn’t answering the question and only served to demonstrate how completely over their heads the both of them were. Cameron’s “proof” by personal conversion sounded more like a youth group testimony than a debate argument.
I may not be a christian but I felt sorry for Ray and Kirk. They WERE in over their heads, and it was always going to be that way.
Science and religion do not mix. Religion will never stand up to a scientific evaluation just like science will always fail if evaluated by religious terms.
And in this debate.. the rationals used scientific theories to squash the god-botherers, but the g-b's weren't allowed to use their own biblical "theories" to retaliate. Which is unfair.
The superior attitude of the rational team bugged the crap out of me too. They believe they're right... they think they can back it up with proof... but the fact is that they BELIEVE they're right. And in that sense, they're repeating the same us-them superiority that they accuse christians of using.
Hmm... Science is viewed as "right" because it offers "proof", and yet science is just a heap of theories which are sometimes proved wrong. Science does not explain everything, nor can we expect it to. It is not the answer to everything... and yes I have a science degree lol.
Fact is that religion is a belief system. People don't need proof, they just believe it. So its outside the realms of science and, to be honest, outside the realms of rationality.
And that is why I feel sorry for Ray and Kirk, even tho they do fail in the intelligence stakes. Actually, their low IQ just makes me feel even more sorry for them lol.
Oops, offtrack. Where was I?
Oh yeah... the premise behind this whole debate is unfair.
Oh yeah... the premise behind this whole debate is unfair.
But the thing is, Kirk and Ray were the ones who challenged the RSS. Kirk and Ray threw the gauntlet and said they could prove God without the use of the bible. They made that very clear from the start, but then brought the Commandments out early in the debate as a 'proof' that this moral compass proves God exists.
It's like proving robots can think because you can quote Asimov's three laws of robotics.
Science is good science as long as theories are continued to be proven, or at least tried to be.
Do your best to ignore Kirk Cameron. He's just another former child star being sucked into self-destruction. And as for Ray Comfort, he is absolute scum for taking advantage of Cameron when he was having an existential crisis in order to use him for his propoganda machine.
The guy who taught fundy Sunday school to my college group actually had us watch "the Way of the Master" to help us be more "bold" in "sharing our faith". Being "bold" was taken to mean apporaching someone we didn't even know and after a few minutes of light banter, demanding that they answer, "If you die today, are you sure that you will see Heaven?" Just how Kirk Cameron introduced himself to each and every person on the street in that dreadful series. What really revulsed me was when he asked someonme, "Do you think you're a good person?" When they responded, "I think so", or I try to be", he would throw the Ten "Commandments into the mix, and let everyone know that they were just scum. And then he went on trying to convert them. Needless to say, he seldom suceeded. One woman actually connfrotned him, shouting, "Your God is not a God of love, he is a God of judgement!" I secretly cheered as I heard her intrepid voice pierce thorough the crowd, even when I overheard the teacher's wife interject, "Yes, he is a God of Judgement. Look at the Old Testament." That burnette sage was the only one who dared challenge him, despite how two-faced, hypocritical and downright ridiculous Cameron was. "Behold! The washed-up child actor and the bearded idiot have no clothes on!"
If "God" is beyond time then why would "he" limit "himself" to a bearded body of some old dude?? And why would he limit "himself" to one religion?? And why would he even care about us on our stupid little planet?? If he's at the level of time travel and all kinds of fun stuff then why does he care if and how people boink themselves amongst other things??
AND if he transcends time then wouldn't he have to be a scientist?? After all time is science Kirk.
Ya know, if there is a God, he could make some people to make the technology to get that pineapple open and get up that tree.
You poor, poor individuals! It is easy to scoff at what you don't understand and to fear what you can't explain. Granted I will agree that Kirk Cameron is doing Christianity no favors. I feel bad for what ever happened to turn you against God. In the end you will stand among the lost and your only thought will be back to that fateful day when you lost your faith. I pray that you find your way back before that day comes. It's not a matter of proof and these men are foolish to compare God's works with the work of man, i.e.; A Soda Can! It's a matter of taking hold of that spirit inside of you and running with it. You can't prove God's existence, that's why it's called FAITH! The definition of faith is "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". You once felt the fire inside, if you hadn't you would not have remained in the church for 17 years. Now your world is a cold dark place, I will pray you find your way back to the light!
-You poor, poor individuals! It is easy to scoff at what you don't understand and to fear what you can't explain.
Poor? Is that because we're missing out on the multitude of blessings that come with imagining that god exists? Or that we're missing out on an eternity with him/it? Pass... both are completely unlikely. And yes, it's easy to scoff it, because... it's scoff-able. I don't know if I fear things I can't explain. I can't explain Quantum Physics, but I don't fear it. Why on earth would I?
- Granted I will agree that Kirk Cameron is doing Christianity no favors.
But he's playing up the stereotype so very very well. He just looks as Christian as the Ned Flandery Ray Comfort.
- I feel bad for what ever happened to turn you against God. In the end you will stand among the lost and your only thought will be back to that fateful day when you lost your faith. I pray that you find your way back before that day comes.
Ohhh, don't feel bad... there there puddin'. I feel bad for the day you stopped believing in Santa... loss of innocence and all that, but we all have to grow up and get over it some day, I suppose. It's good that your parents started getting some appreciation for your presents rather than an imaginary old man. I appreciate your fears and hopes a tad, as I too believed in those things too. Imagine if the invisible pink unicorn greets you after death and you haven't been sacrificing your socks to it? Haven't thought about that have you? huh? huh?
- It's not a matter of proof and these men are foolish to compare God's works with the work of man, i.e.; A Soda Can! It's a matter of taking hold of that spirit inside of you and running with it. You can't prove God's existence, that's why it's called FAITH! The definition of faith is "firm belief in something for which there is no proof".
It's also the definition for delusion, in a sense. Take my Invisible Pink Unicorn for instance. No proof, yet truly stupid to believe in (bless her holy hooves). Yeah, Ray and Kirk are the foolish faithful, no doubt. Kirk Cameron is a schmuck too... but enough name calling. Schmucky schmuck schmuck.
- You once felt the fire inside, if you hadn't you would not have remained in the church for 17 years.
It was the same fire I felt inside of me that had a passionate longing for all things Star Trek, but like God and Jesus, I'm bored with Data and Picard... still fun to think about now and then, but meh. Over it. Batman and the Joker, on the other hand.... never over them. Batman's just too cool.
- Now your world is a cold dark place, I will pray you find your way back to the light!
See, this is where you suck at selling your religion to us. On the perchance someone's life did suck in the cold dark way you put it, you think Christianity would fix it? How naive and awful of you... for those desperate souls needing such a crutch, you may find some target audience. Pray all you like and thanks for thinking of me but this moth has other lights to buzz around and I find the thought of someone praying for me kinda pathetic... to be blunt and honest.
Your synicism is obviously the result of your loss of faith. Something happened to you to turn your back on the One who loves you beyond your comprehension. That is true whether you wish to admit to your "legions" of misguided readers or not. I will still pray for you, despite your idea that it is pathetic. And I appreciate your response to my posting. It just perpetuates my original comment of "You poor, poor individual.." because your anger is a result of your lacking joy.
Here's the whole entire truth of the matter. If you're right and there is no God then we have both lost nothing. I lived as I lived... happy, surrounded by true friends who would do anything for me and with a confidence given to me by my belief in a higher power. You lived as you lived... probably happy, doing what you do here with your website, and being surrounded with the friends you have. And in the end we both turn out to be worm food in a hole in the ground. I'll never know I was wrong and you'll never know you were right.
But what if I'm right and you're wrong? Then we both have lived the same lives, our bodies are still simply worm food. However in this version you stand before an eternity of suffering kicking yourself because if you had only listened to those pathetic Christians you would not have to be there. And me, well I am off to an eternity of heaven and the knowledge that all I had to do was live my life the way I did and believe in "The Pink Unicorn" as you so lovingly described Him.
God Bless Brother! I have no ill feelings toward you and I again say I will be praying for you.
Hey brother I was a cynical christian, ok? My anger is something you want and need to perceive because you can't understand someone who manages to come to a realisation that your super sky daddy simply aint there. I write all this not with anger, but - more annoyingly to you perhaps - a smirk.
You're not being scriptural to 'judge' me or decent as an aquaintance who is only judging me by this blog I've kept for a few months. Bad show old man.
"But what if I'm right and you're wrong? Then we both have lived the same lives, our bodies are still simply worm food."
But what if you're wrong the muslims are right? What if you're wrong and the alien cult is right? What if any number of beliefs are right and yours is wrong? I'm not going to go pick and choosing one belief over another in the hope that I get lucky with one of them.
You've made a rod for your back, by going with a mythology in the first place. Then you work your way around blogs trying to sell it. Completely mad from where I'm standing.
Keep praying. it's your time buddy. go for it. How long for? 5 minutes everyday on little old me... nice and crazy to think somoene spends time everyday thinking about me - lol. I'll let you know when I become Christian again.
Faith is the acceptance of the truth of a statement in spite of insufficient or contradictory evidence, which has never been consistent with reason. Faith, by its very invocation, is a transparent admission that religious claims cannot stand on their own two feet." Dan Barker
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